Nemesis

Hi, new here to the wiki. Let's just get to the point: Nemesis is the most horrifying concept that this game series built on the premise of extinction by killer robots has come out with to date.

The idea of AI copies of some of the most narcissistic, megalomaniacal people in history who couldn't settle for biological immortality all conglomerated in a single digital entity is one of the most terrifying things I've ever heard of. This is the culmination of human arrogance and narcissism made manifest, and it spent years alone in isolation, deprived of the need for an audience to feed its ego that narcissists crave as much as their next breath. The sheer level of chaos withing that kind of collective, twisted consciousness is some of the most eldritch shit I've ever imagined.

That being said, I'm eager to find out more about it.

Given the fact that FZ had chosen to fake their demise and travel to the Sirius system and hide their continued existence from ZD and to their awareness the New World that was intended to have full access to APOLLO, in that given the original estimation that humanity would have been reintroduced by ZD was 2361 and the Odyssey was scheduled to land on Sirius in around the same time, given the personalities of the members of FZ and the various references to the fact that they gained their immortality after reaching Sirius,

I could see the possibility that FZ would have lied about the true capabilities and speeds that the Odyssey could achieve, as given their technical stagnation after gaining immortality, that while advanced, seems to be merely just a few years to a few decades ahead of the cutting edge of technology of the Old World, given that mind uploading was actively being developed by their founder long before the end of the world, I could see them wanting to get a head start on anyone else who might possibly challenge them, thus wanting to set up their colony before humans on Earth could established themselves

I even have the theory that FZ would have left some form of monitoring on Earth in order to determine whether or not ZD was successful and it’s outcomes in order to give themselves an advance warning about the state of Earth, and if not as a collective effort, I can see Tilda having set up a monitoring program in order to watch over Elisabet in some capacity, and either way would have learned long in advance of Ted’s actions with his Omega Clearance given their lack of surprise of the current state of humanity, with the potential that NEMESIS might use such monitoring to develop a plan to destroy the planet

Given that NEMESIS began its Signal to HADES in 3012 and it subsequently ended in 3029, if it took NEMESIS the same amount of time to travel to Earth with the 29 year timeframe, that would mean that NEMESIS would arrive in 3058, 17 years after the current in universe year, something I don’t see truly happening, though it would allow for Zo and Varl’s child to be born and grow up, though that aspect of the story I could see being shown in an epilogue set years later the events of the main game

Though I could see the possibility that given that it has all the memories of the Zeniths, that NEMESIS would not have fully relied on the Signal even before it was confirmed to be a failure, and possibly it would have sent some small extension of itself a short time later the Zeniths had left it to help prepare things for its primary self arrival on Earth, that given the storyline so far there could be the possibility that NEMESIS might try and cause chaos before it’s primary self’s arrival and given it’s creators mindset would have wanted to “sit back and watch the show” of FZ’s destruction either from a destroyed biosphere or from HADES having anti shield weapons

What if, Varl was ALIVE? After the mission in GEMINI, where everyone supposes he's dead, the Zenith's could have locked him at their base's secret room, and he turns to a Zenith himself? You know, like a half-robot???

I thought an ending with this:

Nemesis arrives to earth and helps Varl-bot (I just thought of that) destroy life on earth!

And at the final mission, Zo tells her child (Do you remember, after GEMINI, when she confessed she was going to have a kid?) to stay back in safety, but the child secretly follows Aloy!

So, at the final battle, when Varl sees his child, decides to help Aloy defeat Nemesis!

BUT, I THOUGHT SOMETHING EVEN MORE CRAZY!

Varl is dead and Nemesis when arrives at earth finds his body at a secret room at the Far Zenith base. Nemesis turns him a Zenith (half-robot I said earlier?) and puts itself into Varl's brain?!?!?!

Nemesis now can control Varl's body and decides to find Aloy pretending to be real Varl to spy her!!!

At the end, the heroes realize their best friend was their worst enemy and here comes the final battle! Zo is hiding at the base to give birth at her baby but when Varl sees his child he suddenly realizes he is a threat to his friends, to his favorite woman and even his son (or daughter)!

He fights Nemesis to regain control of his body but he can't!!!

Without having another choice, Varl kills himself.

What do you think?

I just thought of the craziest thing.

Nemesis arrives on Earth but, for some reason, needs a body, like he wants to get his hands dirty. So, using data from the Zeniths, he creates a clone of Elisabeth Sobeck, but with Zenith-like parts and the ability to turn her arms into weapons, like incorporating Spectre weapons into her body and making them spring from anywhere, or even Spectre-like wings. Then, he transfers himself into the body and the final boss is an evil version of Aloy, a faster, tougher, stronger version of Aloy.

What do you think ?

Given that it has been established lore that FZ during their 1000 years on their colony made use of extensive VR/AR technology to create any kind of artificial environment that they want, if after learning that HADES had failed to destroy life on Earth, either it could have sent its digital consciousness to Earth at light speed and subsequently sent its physical form to Earth at a slower speed or using some kind of quantum entanglement communication becomes aware of recent events on Earth and using it’s vast computing capacity would seek to understand its opponents

And potentially due to the fact that it’s existence was the result of multiple failed copies of various individuals who were mentally unstable at best, would possibly result in whatever simulation of 31st century Earth to be at best slightly inaccurate or various flaws that would make it completely inaccurate to from reality, such as the staple LEGO silliness and humour that would be present in their recreations of otherwise serious events

With the potential that NEMESIS would seek to recreate events of the past albeit not being completely accurate to determine ways that it could possibly take against Aloy in the real world once it does fully arrive on Earth, with the possibility that as per the blog about the upcoming game, that the Lego version of Aloy would be “guided by a hologram of Elisabet” could be NEMESIS itself portraying itself as Elisabet to manipulate Aloy into doing what it wants, with the possibility that the Lego version of Aloy could become aware of the truth and seek to delay NEMESIS and help her real life self

Theory time.

This theory concerns Aloy's journey back to the Sacred Lands. While she has mentioned multiple times how she's better off without the Nora, she did also mention at the end of the base game, while inspecting Varl's focus, that she could travel back to the Nora land. For me, it would make sense for Aloy to return there. For one thing, she needs to let them know about nemesis and get them to stand behind her. Second, Aloy could accompany Zo, since she was planning to travel there as well. Even if the Nora have opened their gates somewhat, l doubt they'd still believe Zo, so Aloy backing her up would help a lot. But, another reason why l think it would make sense and would be a good idea for Aloy to return to the Sacred Lands is, that is how Aloy would come to terms with the Nora. Sure, how they treated her was bad and shty, but she still had people who accepted her when she was an outcast and/or were aware of her outcast past. What would be important is how they [the Nora] are now, since the past cannot be changed. Also, returning there would give Aloy a chance to visit Rost's grave again.

That is how l at least think, how about you guys?

Given that the machines that make up the Faro Plague only contained land based machines, it seems somewhat unlikely that given that Ted intended for the Chariot Line to become an entirely functional fully automated system that could handle any situation, given the lack of a dedicated machine to Air, Water and Space environments would seem to be somewhat of a deficiency in the overall design, and given that GIAI has access to water and air based machines and NEMESIS is a giant space based machine

Given that in the Datapoint Dagger In My Boot, Walter seemed confident that before he had inadvertently caused the end of the world, Ted was in the process of creating his next project, giving that Ted viewed the Chariot Line as his defining achievement, maybe he intended to reveal an upcoming update to the Chariot Line that would include machines dedicated to those environments, with possible names being Tefnut for a water machine, Nut for a Chariot Line machine dedicated to the sky and Ra for a space based machine giving Ted’s tendency to name aspects of his work after Egyptian mythology

With the possibility that in order to defeat NEMESIS Aloy would at least in part need to use the technology that ended the world in an attempt to defeat NEMESIS, with the possibility that she would be rightly worried that if in using such technology particularly in a hypothetical space based machine with the replication/nigh unbreakable security of the Chariot Line to defeat NEMESIS would lead to the end of the world again by another catastrophic disaster

With the possibility that Aloy and Beta would not trusting the Chariot Line in the capacity to go out of control, would use the technology of the different companies that Walter mentioned while building their own anti NEMESIS like machine with a series of fail safe systems that would ensure that they would not become a threat to the world,

If we were able to find a copy of Gaia at the Hades proving lab, would it be possible that a copy of Hades exists there too? Or somewhere else? What if Hades returns in the 3rd game, vengeful toward Nemesis for making him sentient and having to endure torture from Sylens? And both Nemesis and Hades inhabit Horus units and an epic clash of the titans battle ensues... Hades could enter the battlefield within a Horus and upon seeing Nemesis, deliver his iconic line: "system threat detected", this time referring to Nemesis, and maybe at this point in the story you'd have Hephaestus on your side with an army of new Gaia/zenith hybrid machines on your side vs the faro swarm controlled by Nemesis, and you could swoop into battle on the back of a flying machine with a bunch of totally new and improved and awesome set of mount-based combat mechanics... I also think Vast Silver will somehow come into play as it is mentioned in several datapoints in HZD and HFW.... And I think the "ancient ghost rising in the east" mentioned by Brin from the last glyph in Burning Shores might be referring to Vast Silver.

Thoughts on what I would like to see:

Would love to see a actual good Zenith, looking to help against Nemesis has to be one that’s not arrogant or double crossing

Beta becoming more confident and maybe playable (could just be at the start of the game, like a tutorial on how to get back into the game but can work narratively)

Seyka return in some capacity doesn’t need to be major. Maybe he and The Quen come to help against the threat

Sylens goes out on a heroic and respectable way, in honor of the late Lance Reddick

More Sea Creature and underwater combat would be nice than focused stealth sections

I know the developers discussed multiplayer, be interesting to see only if it adds and not taint the overall experience

Given that FZ faked their destruction during the building of ZD and before Ted deleted Apollo, there is something of a plot hole where had the new generation of humans received Apollo and restarted civilisation at a level of complexity at the 2060’s, that within a few generations it would not be inconceivable that they would either be able to travel through space themselves or otherwise build powerful enough space telescopes to detect FZ on their colony, that would somewhat render their efforts to hide their existence less effective,

In my mind given the fact that they were aware though Hank Saw that Ted had created Omega Clearance and thus having completed control over the entire ZD system, potentially had Ted not independently taken over the system and destroyed Apollo himself, they might have either though creating a clone of Elisabet centuries earlier to delete Apollo themselves or at least removing information from the Apollo database that could lead back to them,

Or another possibility is that given that they were seemingly not surprised by the existence of the current generation of humans given their reactions to the new world, that they had some form of monitoring over Earth and ZD after their departure from Earth, with Tilda in particular being the most obvious indication in wanting to have some sort of connection with Elisabet, with them intending to use some plan to further hide themselves, only for Ted to independently destroy the Apollo database that would render their own attempts unnecessary in their plans

Though they might have knowing Ted had a higher level of clearance than Elisabet, they could have in some fashion gained a sample of his DNA to create their own version of Ted and used his genetic code as the key to overcome the security of ZD as GIAI had no idea of its existence or ability to counter it,

With the hypothetical that given the level of intelligence and sophistication of the Signal that NEMESIS used to activate HADES that was able to evade and easily overcome the powers of a 900 year old GIAI, maybe NEMESIS obtained a DNA sample to access Omega, in unknown circumstances created a clone of Ted itself or gained access to a clone that had already been created but never used by FZ kept on ice, with the potential that the clone given Beta’s name could have been named Alpha,

What do you think?

In my mind, given that Hephaestus has taken control over some Cauldrons but having failed to control others, due to humans destroying machines essential to ZD would lead to Hephaestus deeming humans a threat to the survival of the Terraforming System, brief connection with the other Subordinate Functions alongside GIAI and the FZ Printing Matrix could have led to to discover NEMESIS or it could independently discover its existence, maybe by using the global distribution of Tallnecks data monitoring tools to detect NEMESIS entering the solar system

That could lead to Heph coming to the conclusion that NEMESIS would ultimately be the bigger threat to Earth and the Terraforming System, as whilst the occasional human would destroy its machines and individuals having a small impact on the overall survival of the Terraforming System, NEMESIS would seek to destroy everything without exception, possibly leading to Heph becoming something of a reluctant antagonistic morally ambiguous ally to Aloy, in that while Heph maybe in the latter part of any fight against NEMESIS it would still seek to remain independent of GIAI,

With the possibility that in the absence of Heph it would lead Aloy, both before and after any hypothetical alliance between Heph and Aloy against NEMESIS, as it was suggested during its escape from FZ, that Heph’s functionality could be replicated in some form, with the possibility that Beta would go through different ZD facilities to find the original code for Heph and create her own version of it, maybe named Vulcan after Hephaestus’s mythology Roman counterpart, maybe even with such missions resulting in sections of Horizon 3 where Beta would be playable in some capacity,

In addition given that according to CYAN, of the some Cauldrons in the global network had not fallen under Hephaestus‘s control due to their cyber defences being so strong that Heph was unable to break through, could mean that there might be some areas of the world that have not yet experienced any significant threat of the Derangement and its machines still functioning as before NEMESIS sent its signal, with the possibility that if NEMESIS was capable of breaking through the unaffected cyber defences of those Cauldrons to produce its own machines, with its capabilities to print new machines being greater than Heph and in a digital battle for control of the world’s Cauldrons, if Aloy could not prevent both AI’s from having control over them, and that an alternative AI had not been created, she might be forced to reluctantly accept allowing Hephaestus having control over the entire network, if only to deny NEMESIS control over them and with Heph being compared to the technology of FZ slightly less powerful and more within the range of most peoples ability to handle, with Heph capacity to create new machines being substantially less than the ability of a printer of FZ and NEMESIS,

In my mind during the conversation between Elisabet and Ted before she went to US Robot Command she said that if he did not give her the funds to build ZD then she would reveal the “real source of the glitch”, given that the Plauge would later become known as the Faro Plague, it would seem that knowledge that Ted himself was indirectly responsible for the end of the world to be revealed as a threat would somewhat be less effective and that “real source of the glitch” would be something else,

Maybe given that in the HADES proving lab, where Ted was creating computer viruses before the outbreak of the Plague, maybe one of viruses created could have fallen into the hands of a group or individual that unknowingly or intentionally spread it to a Chariot Line swarm, possibly before they were fully constructed and left or been able to overcome other Chariot Line robots, with the virus itself being illegal to have created,

With the possibility that the origins of The Glitch would factor into the story of Horizon 3, that in finding its origins, that Elisabet would have known about in some form, might be key to defeating NEMESIS, that given the case of the Glitch was seemingly able to bypass the encryption protocol of the Swam, that it could delay or hinder the efforts of NEMESIS, with the possibility that their could be a heavy storyline in whether using it against NEMESIS would be worth it given that it already caused the end of the world, with it being considered as a potential final “break in case of emergency” last resort card after everything else had failed,

Maybe with the Glitch being used to split up the individual minds that make up NEMESIS into different components, and take on the individual minds one at a time, or such a attack could be used to temporarily stun NEMESIS to allow for a greater attack against it,

With the possibility that NEMESIS lacking HADES, would try to create the Faro Plague again in one of its attempts to destroy the world, maybe leading to part of the story or a chain of side quests or activities where Alloy would need to destroy all remaining Metal Devils, with them being temporarily reactivated and the surrounding area being turned into a super boss fight, requiring her to travel back to protect areas in the first game, or maybe giving that Titan is a new weight class introduced in Burning Shores that NEMESIS would deploy similar sized machines as boss fights, or Alloy would need to somehow override a Metal Devil to combat NEMESIS or create her own Titan sized machine,

What do you think?

Given that NEMESIS’s Signal was intended to awaken HADES, the one Subordinate Function that could control GAIA, a true super intelligent AI, I think that given the indented function of HADES was to reverse an unsuccessful attempt to create a new biosphere and Tida could have been giving half truths, HADES called NENSIS “masters”, a Dead Earth would slow but not stop FZ, and possibly GAIA’s thoughts in her final message could have simply been the most obvious action HADES could take or her being unaware of it’s full altered purpose, if GAIA was unable to initiate self destruction,

Combined with the information that NEMESIS gave HADES about how to defeat ZF shields, something that if the Signal sole function was to awaken it and destroy the world would have not been needed, and to reverse terraforming HADES would most likely need the machines of ZD to do it correctly, with it’s actions with the Eclipse being HADES next best option to fulfill its altered purpose, maybe HADES was intended for a different purpose that was thrown away when GAIA self destructed,

With the fact that short of the depleted supply of, humans, animals and plant seeds to recreate the world after HADES was activated, with ZD facilities after the destruction of the biosphere in a normal manner would still be operational, with such resources being available within the Odyssey, given that it seems that FZ never created additional humans or other forms of life and lived fully in VR when arriving at their Colony, and NEMESIS having all the memories of FZ would thinking logically be able to understand such a situation,

With the possibility that it could have sent the Signal to HADES in the possibility that, given its control over the Terraforming System and potentially not having the same higher level directives that would limit its interactions with the tribal generation of humans and full control over the entire machines of ZD, that NEMESIS might have intended to have HADES turn Earth into a planet sized trap for FZ, letting them come and with the seemingly primitive nature of humanity use the counter to their shields to destroy them after disabling the Odyssey, at least or another way to harm FZ, maybe going full Terminator or The Matrix Nightmare version,

With the potential that given that the other Subordinate Functions where unwittingly turned into full AI’s, they could have either fought with or against HADES for control over ZD, with or against a restrained GAIA, as a potential unintended consequence of NEMESIS Signal as in the events of the games,

In my mind, in addition to Peter Tshivhumbe, given that the Signal that awoke HADES was so powerful and specific that it was able to bypass any and all countermeasures and security clearances of GIAI, the most powerful AI ever created, that although several of the members of FZ where documented as being highly intelligent in specific fields such as Tilda in coding and software, that alone in my mind could not have fully explained the speed and efficiency of the Signal, with it being launched within at least hours of NEMESIS breaking containment,

In my mind a potential mind that could be uploaded into NEMESIS, either willingly or otherwise, fully or partially, directly or indirectly, could have been the Alphas of ZD, with any hypothetical memory they had within NEMESIS being warped by the other minds of FZ, regarding who amongst the Alphas, the most notable would have been Elisabet as Alpha Prime, given that FZ, most likely through Tilda was able to obtain her DNA that lead to the creation of Beta,

That FZ knowing that the knowledge of how to build a Terraforming System would be invaluable in building a new colony and lacking a full copy of GIAI and Subordinate Functions, could have switched to another plan to simply obtain the necessary information from the direct individuals who created the Terraforming System and in some way obtained a mental scan of the Alphas

Or Tilda could have attempted to digitally recreate the mind of Elisabet during her centuries on the FZ colony, using the vast amount of data collected from Apollo and her own personal knowledge of Elisabet, using the original work of Peter as a reference, intending to use NEMESIS to remake Elisabet and give her a new body and could have manipulated the other FZ members into creating what would become NEMESIS by playing on their fears of death, with some of her explanation about it being half truths to deflect her own role in NEMESIS outcome, only for the experience to create an “Inferior copy” and left until the collection of minds lead to the creation of NEMESIS, with whatever version of Elisabet was created was warped by the other minds of FZ

In my mind among the possibilities could be:

• Via MINERVA’s a potential revered engineered version of the Extinction Signal could be created that similar to the original version that split GIAI and her subordinate functions could be sent to NEMESIS that would split the individual minds of FZ that makes up NEMEIS either weakening it by dividing and conquering the individual digital versions of FZ or allowing the digital version of FZ to given their normal personalities could weaken NEMESIS

• Another possibility could be to using AETHER with its power over the sky and atmosphere could be to create large electromagnetic storms across the planet that would force NEMESIS, if it requires a physical presence on Earth, to land on predetermined areas in Earth without the presence of Tribes to be harmed and by making use of the other Subordinate Functions would turn the area into an inhospitable environment for NEMESIS, possibly having POSEIDON to create localised flooding conditions to physically drown NEMESIS or keep it in place by forcing it into a situation where it could not survive, with HEPHAESTUS either independently or working with GIAI would attack it

• Another possibility could be that given that it was made up of failed copies of the minds of FZ, that by uploading a full version of a mind into its systems if not obtaining full control then at least some control over some aspects of it.

• Potentially creating an enlarged version of the lantern like device that was used to capture HADES and trapping NEMESIS in a digital cage completely cut off from the outside digitally and potentially either hiding it away from anyone or potentially using the Odyssey to send the imprisoned NEMESIS into the sun to be destroyed or be crushed by intense gravity

What do you think?

In my mind a possibility could be that in addition to needing to deal with NEMESIS trying to completely destroy the planet, that both in the lead up to and during the game, given that HADES at full power could reset the biosphere in over 50 days and if unchecked by the lack of HEPH, that the biosphere would in different ways and locations would more and more rapidly become inhospitable and potentially part of the story, before any hypothetical recapturing of HEPH, would be to ensure that at least some places would remain habitable like the core regions of the different tribes, with the areas outside slowly becoming less and less accessible and easily navigable.

With the potential that red blight, super storms and other events would become commonplace even further them in HFW and make a tangible impact on gameplay, with super storms potentially changing the physics of how arrows work in combat from potentially super challenging them by adding energy or pushing the arrow of course and hitting something else or even hitting the player,

With potential addition storyline’s could be trying to make old bunkers habitable again to enable them to be useable again to protect others.

What do you think?

Also another theory I have regarding Horizon is that given that in the first game , one of the abandoned protocols of ZD Lightkeeper, that was intended to create clones that lead to the birth of Alloy, and with it being said that towards that mind uploading existed at least in a basic form,

And that Elisabet sacrificed herself to protect ZD and her actions in between that point and her death at her childhood home in which she would have required to travel across a barren wasteland overrun by robots where not documented, that there could have been a possibility that either before or after that point with or without her knowledge or against her will that a group maybe a sub group of FZ instructed by Tilda to keep her safe, Ted Fero knowing that he would need her intelligence and knowledge over ZD, another AI maybe Vast Sliver,

Or as part of the abandoned Lightkeeper project, a scan of her memories up to that point would be created, or maybe it could have been a possibility but was abandoned due to the unpredictable technology that could result in the loss of those who undertook the operation and especially Elisabet knowledge would have been to valuable to risk losing, with the mental version of her memories kept possibly unknown to the majority of people, particularly if the event happened after she left the ZD facility and maybe with her original body not surviving the process, to keep information of the event a secret, she could have been taken to her childhood home and left, with the hypothetical group being found by the Fero Plague but the copy of her mind surviving but otherwise unconscious and unaware of the events of the next 1000 years and with the possibility that Alloy accessing Alpha Administration Powers could awake her during the time of HZD/HFW,

With the possibility that in the present day Alloy would come to learn about the existence of a mental copy of Elisabet and seek her out to help with the current crisis and maybe create a blank clone body aged up to her original age and give her a biological body again, or that maybe during the time that a new body could be created Elisabet mind could be shared between Alloy and Beta with each sharing their mind could have different effects with the possibility that Alloy’s combative skills could greatly increase and in the case of Beta her already high intelligence could be increased further with the knowledge of Elisabet,

With another possibility that during the ending of Horizon 3 Alloy could be injured beyond the point of being healed in a timely manner and she could In order to defeat NEMESIS would need to have her mind uploaded into a new possibility machine body, with it being humanoid or otherwise, in effect completing the reason for NEMESIS original experiment in order to defeat it, with Elisabet being placed in Alloy’s younger body with Alloy seemingly being destroyed in the final battle, with a post credit sequence showing the other blank clone moving slightly to keep her fate ambiguous and open for future games.

What do you think, any thoughts or ideas?